With Sympathy: Al Jourgensen at 65
Celebrating the industrial icon by looking at his least favorite Ministry album
Before Ministry became the assaultive industrial rock band you know – hell, have known since the mid-1980s – there was another Ministry, a band signed to Arista that released an album in 1983 called With Sympathy.
It’s not exactly the “secret history of Ministry” – everything’s findable now – but, you know, kinda.
On the occasion of bandleader, singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist Al Jourgensen’s 65th birthday this week, we thought we’d look back on those early days, including recent email exchanges with two of the Boston musicians involved back then, bassist Brad Hallen (now with the Nervous Eaters) and keyboardist Mark Pothier (a former colleague of mine at the Boston Globe, who left this year to found the soon-to-launch Plymouth Independent website).
Ministry had made a mark in the industrial rock world around its hometown, Chicago, in the early ‘80s, but recorded With Sympathy in Boston at The Cars’ Syncro Sound studio on Newbury Street. The synth-pop album, produced by Vince Ely, got mixed reviews – Rolling Stone praised its “catchy dance songs” – but, well, here’s what Jourgensen told me in 1990: “We were young and stupid. I did everything the record company told me to do. The wanted us to write absolute pop crap. It’s the typical system. Major record companies sign you because you’re unique and you have a following and they immediately try and homogenize into sounding like everybody else. It’s a real paradox.”
We’ll get to Hallen’s and Pothier’s take on those early days, in a bit but right now, we’ll go back to the Jourgensen of 1990.
Having signed to Sire, he said, “We do everything by the seat of our pants and sell it to them later. They just kind of leave us alone. It’s kind of a trade-off but it’s worth it.”
And in 1990, enjoying a little moment in the sun …
“We used to be hated,” he said. “Now, we’re little press darlings. We’ve been tagged with this cyber-techno-electro-new wave-o-thrash-o moniker. Everyone’s fawning over us and I think it’s pretty disgusting. It’s going to be thing that splits Ministry up for good, probably. People come to the shows for the wrong reason. They come to show off their new haircut, their leather coat. Mom and Dad’s new BMW. A lot of people are buying it because it’s the trendy thing to buy now. To me, who cares?”
Method to the madness?
“We go into the studio absolutely unprepared and bash it out. Generally, the first week is just plunking around on instruments and drinking til you pass out. After that, we’ll remember some of the things we plunked out and go back and start paring things down. It’s not a a format. It’s all visceral. Either you feel it or you don’t.”
Nine years later, we talked again. I said that Ministry just about always sounds on the brink of chaos and disorder.
“It should be some sort of cathartic experience, where you come out drained but you also come out fulfilled,” Jourgensen replied. “Tired, drained full of sweat, blood, everything all over you. Go home and have a good night’s sleep, wake up and think about it the next day.”
We also talked about drugs. “Being honest, over the years it landed me in a lot of hot water,” Jourgensen said. “And I understand but it just became bigger than the music. People come up to you in a restaurant and say, ‘You’re so cool! Shoot up right here!’ What does the title say? It’s the dark side. Drugs are a vehicle. It’s how you use them and not abuse them.”
Now back to the early 80s. (I fired off the same questions to Hallen and Pothier.)
How did you become involved with Ministry? Did you meet Al in Boston and join for With Sympathy, recording a Synchro Sound?
Hallen: I was playing in a local band at the time called Adventure Set. I believe we were playing at [punk club] Spit when Vince Ely and Ian Taylor (they co-produced With Sympathy) who were at the gig approached me and said they dug my playing and said they needed bass on some songs and asked if I was interested and I said sure. Went to Synchro the next day and the session went well and Al dug my playing so he asked if I was interested in joining the band and I said yes.
Pothier: I met Al in Boston. He and Ian — my brother-in-law for the last 30-something years — came to see me and Brad play in Adventure Set, which was about to take off, in my opinion. I was invited to Syncro Sound to hang out after that, ran into Al a few times around town, and backstage at the [rock club] the Metro after an ABC show, Al asked me to join Ministry, positioning it as a chance for us to collaborate as songwriters, which barely happened. He loved our early track “Gift Wrap,” which got play on [Boston rock powerhouse] WBCN. Brad and I eventually said yes, an agonizing decision that culminated in a tearful Adventure Set meeting at Al’s Back Bay apartment. He had offered to let us use his place as “neutral” territory. Right.
What was working with Al like in those days? Was he more dictator or collaborator?
Hallen: He was always good with me. I came up with my own parts. We were both heavily into R&B. With Sympathy is like Chic meets The Cure. I played a lot of keyboards as well, touring with Ministry, so he had certain parts he wanted me to play and I did. I always got along well with Al.
Pother: I played on a few tracks, which were extended versions for 12-inchers. Much of the recording had been done by that time, around March 1983, methinks. Working him then was a struggle in that Al – contrary to the tired storyline that he was forced to record songs against his will – wanted control of everything. I recall him once even putting his fingers on mine to show me what notes I should play on a particular track. But he was pleasant enough most of the time and it was impressive to see him go from guitar to keyboard to vocals, laying down tracks almost effortlessly. Having Ian helped. He did most of the engineering and production while Vince dressed sharp and ordered fine wines from Bauer’s down the street.
Al has had many varied takes when he’s looked back on the With Sympathy days – most negative, some positive – but certainly in the ‘90s talking to me, he was on the negative tip, saying it was a crappy pop record and Arista had foisted, or forced that sound upon him. What is your take?
Hallen: He loved it and was into it. He can say all he wants but the label had nothing to do with picking band members. Nothing was forced. When we were doing demos for the second Arista record the label didn’t dig the material, he submitted so that’s where some bitterness came in on Al’s part. He was starting to move in a more industrial direction and we moved on to Sire at that time. Arista wanted to continue going in the same direction but Al had other plans.
Pothier: Believe me, Al was in command of how With Sympathy came out. We thought it sounded amazing and so did Al. Or if he didn’t, it was masterful acting. Yes, there were complaints about Arista, management, and tour budgets, but nothing about the songs. I did not see any Arista executives lurking in the studio.
Al has been pretty public in his memoir about his overuse of booze drugs – coke, heroin, whatever. Was he using or particularly fucked up during your days with him or did that come later?
Hallen: There was partying for sure. No heroin at the time I was in the band. That came later.
Pothier: On tour, Al’s public consumption was not out of control – wine straight out of the bottle, weed, and – I assume – some coke, though I never actually witnessed him snorting and there was LOTS around. Backstage at First Avenue in Minneapolis, someone asked me my name and began spelling it out in coke. The god’s truth is that I did not do any drugs touring during my time in Ministry. For me, it was my shot at making it a high level in music and I wanted to be on alert at all times. Also, I saw how Al observed others who were blowing their per diems on blow – he saw it as a sign of weakness that gave him leverage. Maybe that’s why he was so secretive about his own habits.
There was plenty of bad behavior from Al – public exposure, bursts of belittling behavior, moodiness – but no groupies. His girlfriend Patti was on part of the tour. I remember sharing a hotel room with them one night – separate queen beds! It was like being with an old married couple, albeit an old married goth couple. We watched Johnny Carson together. They were among the few times he let his guard down, opened up about his childhood, etc.
He could also be quite charming, but it always seemed like he might be up to something. Though he was very nice to my parents and aunt and uncle, who came to see us at [rock club] the Channel during an East Coast swing. He called my dad Mr. Pothier and gave him a tour of our bus.
Hallen: Al is an incredibly gifted, talented artist and I enjoyed my time with him. He’s really smart and well-read.
Pothier: As for the times, they were a whirlwind, especially for a kid like me who had not traveled much. The Boston scene was just buzzing and you could feel the energy. Leaving that behind was difficult. Life on the road was pretty much like the way hundreds of other musicians have described it: The thrill of opening for The Police in a baseball stadium, or opening for Culture Club at the Greek Theatre stays with me today. But as the tour went on, the distance between Al and the rest of us increased. The audience response seemed great, but the album was not selling. Arista people became scarce. A reckoning was coming, but I didn’t want to stay for it. On the last night of the tour, at the Palladium in L.A., I knew it was my last show with Ministry. I stayed up until sunrise in my room at The Tropicana hotel, figuring it was time to turn to the only other thing I could do halfway well – write stories.
Al seems a caricature today, but he was a talented guy with lots of insecurities that manifested as bravado and distrust. Remember, he was only 24 years old and being positioned as a “next big thing.” I think he succumbed to it and in the process became isolated from people who did, or might have, cared for him. Probably the most remarkable part – and something that shows there was substance beneath the bad behavior – he re-invented himself and rose from the Arista failure. That doesn’t happen often in the music business.
Three other things – did you know he was born in Cuba and is half- Cuban? [He was born Alejandro Ramirez Casas.] At the time, he didn’t like to talk about it. I don’t know why. And Ministry this year has played “Revenge” on tour – not half bad, either.
And there was (is?) a Ministry tribute band in San Diego called With Sympathy! They only do our songs from that era. I’ve talked to them – great guys. Al showed up at once of their shows about three years ago and appeared to have a swell time. So that says something about his softening perhaps. They billed themselves as “Uncle Al Approved.”
Ministry continues touring and recording. Their 16th studio album, HOPIUMFORTHEMASSES, comes out March 1, 2024. A 29-date North American tour with Gary Numan begins Feb. 27 at the Warfield in San Francisco.
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